Developing Local Climate Adaptation

Discussions of honeybee genetics, epigenetics, hygiene related genetics, breeding, etc.
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SiWolKe
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Re: Developing Local Climate Adaptation

Postby SiWolKe » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:26 am

Well, I like the approach Robin does and I´m of her mind.
I´m doing the hard bond more or less and I still have some survivors, but barely.

I´m with Solomon, most people don´t see the bigger picture, but you can´t change them. So work with the others.

I´m not so pessimistic like you are, Sol, about the shipping, how about moving to another location and taking your bees along?
That´s the same. Did you start with local bees once again, Sol, or did you use your old ones?

The elgon bees I got (F1, bred from swedish queens from Erik Österlund) are better stock to be tf in my locale.

That, because the local bees are so weak already that the will die in one season.

Fact is, that you will have nothing to go on with if you don´t treat them. So you must use more resistant bees to start with, then mix them with local bees and breed the survivors.

The hybrids will change the susceptibility to the better, I already see this.

If we would have ferals, I would use those, but ferals are extinct. The production races here are susceptible to all kinds of disease.

But I think it better to move bees from the north to the south and not a whole continent far.
I have bees that came from the south. It´s too hard for them. Even having some survivors, now better adapted, I would not do this again.
Civility is strength. http://www.VivaBiene.de

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flamenco108
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Re: Developing Local Climate Adaptation

Postby flamenco108 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:42 pm

GregV wrote:
Solomon wrote:Are you certain they were shipped?

They physically were not able to make it there on their own (yet).


Well, Alaska because there were no honeybees in America at all before European settlements. But look here (GregV I suppose, You will understand Russkiy):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2sEN6TDMW4&t=71s
This guy talks about winter survival - he had left several, as he thought, empty beehives, but apparently one of them was not empty. And he is surprised, as the colony survived at least 7 months confined under the snow, on Siberian winter, and it's still strong, without disenteria. You can say, he is not TF, all right, all right. But on another movie he talks about commercial stock - as it's no sense to import bees to his location, as at least after two years the colony becomes "angry like dogs".
Conclusion:
1. Bees can survive in conditions difficult to imagine (this location is near Novosibirsk) for them.
2. There are also TF bees living in forests in such number that their drones outcompete his apiary's drones.
This beekeeper works with bees in rubber gloves and full jacket. I understand him ;)

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GregV
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Re: Developing Local Climate Adaptation

Postby GregV » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:46 pm

SiWolKe wrote:I´m not so pessimistic like you are, Sol, about the shipping, how about moving to another location and taking your bees along?
That´s the same. Did you start with local bees once again, Sol, or did you use your old ones?.


I think you do the right thing in your circumstances - trying to establish from selected imported lines.
Clearly, lessons have bee learned from unsuccessful southern lines.
Northern line should work. Have to start somehow.

This exactly what my "qualification" is about - it is not practical in some places to look for a viable, local swarm.
You have to ship, just be educated and selective about your sources.

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GregV
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Re: Developing Local Climate Adaptation

Postby GregV » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:11 pm

flamenco108 wrote:........Well, Alaska because there were no honeybees in America at all before European settlements....


Yes; we know this.
If you are in the USA/Canada, this is the given context - all honey bees are imported in Americas.

But we also know that Alaska is probably about the last place in the continental USA where the bees were brought (say, about 100-200 year later after they landed on the East Coast). This is the context of my talks.

Thanks for the video. Pretty much this is how I grew up, so... Looks familiar.

Correct, bees in some locations in northern Russia/south-central Siberia adapted to very extreme conditions where no imported bees will survive the very first season. It would be very hard to find any commercial sources to provide bees for those areas because most any commercial source provides mainstream and manageable bees.

(Normally, the more extreme area is the less manageable the bees are. Those remote northern bees are often like "mad dogs" - northern flavor of AFB is you will; I spoke about this too; on a bad day, my Dad would take 20-30 stings - not fun).

Like I was saying already, where I grew up, our bees were flightless for 6 months as a norm.
Shipping Italians/Caucasians into our locality was not only silly and wasteful, but also irresponsible (due to damaging the locally thriving and well adapted stock).

So, bee shipping has its own place, but also has many constraints.

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Solomon
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Re: Developing Local Climate Adaptation

Postby Solomon » Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:57 am

SiWolKe wrote:... how about moving to another location and taking your bees along? Did you start with local bees once again, Sol, or did you use your old ones?


I took mine with me, but that does mean that I sacrifice 2-3 years of productivity and a certain higher loss rate until they get locally adapted again.

But if I hadn't taken them with me, I'd have had to start over with swarms and that's an even longer process. At least I maintained bees that survived even if they didn't thrive. That's always a good start. But instead of making me money, they're costing me money for a couple years. Not a lot, a few hundred for sugar. But they used to make money, used to make a couple thousand a year selling nucs, queens, and honey. Maybe next year I'll be able to do that again.
Solomon Parker, Treatment-Free 14 years, ~24 colony baseline
Treatment-Free Beekeeping Podcast - Parkerbees.com - Treatment-Free Beekeepers Facebook Group

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Rurification
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Re: Developing Local Climate Adaptation

Postby Rurification » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:11 pm

Solomon wrote:
SiWolKe wrote:... But instead of making me money, they're costing me money for a couple years.


...or costing money every single year. I feel your pain. This is my 6th year and they have never made me any money. Maybe...maybe...next year. But I'm not holding my breath.
Robin Edmundson
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Beekeeping since 2012

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GregV
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Re: Developing Local Climate Adaptation

Postby GregV » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:54 pm

Rurification wrote:
Solomon wrote:
SiWolKe wrote:... But instead of making me money, they're costing me money for a couple years.


...or costing money every single year. I feel your pain. This is my 6th year and they have never made me any money. Maybe...maybe...next year. But I'm not holding my breath.


Well, put it this way - you don't have to monetize everything into $ denominations.

My vegetable/fruit/planting materials never brought me any $$$ because I don't sell ($100, if that).
But the $$ value of the home-grown organic fruit/veg that we consumed over the years is really, really high.
I would never spend those kinds of money in $'s out of pocket.
As for me - bees are just part of my homestead.
You want honest, real, and healthy foods?
You raise them foods on your own. All it is.

PS: I would not mind taking $$ or barter for consulting services or TF bees... :) (I can not eat bees, so... )
but as soon as I have proof that my ways work - have to have sustainable, local TF bees, then we'll see.

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SiWolKe
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Re: Developing Local Climate Adaptation

Postby SiWolKe » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:56 pm

Rurification wrote:
...or costing money every single year. I feel your pain. This is my 6th year and they have never made me any money. Maybe...maybe...next year. But I'm not holding my breath.


The deadouts brought some money, 10 hives winter stores.
I rather be poor.

I have a small income from selling old black comb to the metal worker company for the use of a metal finish.
I made some handbalm using light wax, olive oil and tincture of marigolds. This is great and I started a propolis tincture now.

But I´m not living off the bees and will never do.
Civility is strength. http://www.VivaBiene.de

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GregV
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Re: Developing Local Climate Adaptation

Postby GregV » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:21 pm

I got to think..
Where I grew up - geese were one staple we raised.
The village geese were sturdy and compact, self-sustaining in summer, and even could fly from a fox when ambushed in field.
These were true hardy, local mutts.
The most I liked about them - various plumage they had, from pure white to true-gray and anything in between (even bluish).

And there were some pure-bred geese we did not have around.
Big and heavy (more meat for sure), pure-bred and all the same boring color.

Kind of like on these pics.
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