to take out capped brood

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SiWolKe
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to take out capped brood

Postby SiWolKe » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:37 pm

To take out capped brood if the hive started VSH or DWV is seen--
is propagated as a trigger for the bees to learn how to defend themselves---
before they die...so they survive and become resistant...

or is it just a rescue of a dwindling hive---

and what are the consequences to the colony concerning the loss of energy or the disturbing of the broodnest?

any arguments or opinions welcome!
Civility is strength. http://www.VivaBiene.de

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Nordak
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Re: to take out capped brood

Postby Nordak » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:12 pm

VSH, while being one of the tools to combat varroa, isn't enough to withstand full out collapse. I think there has to be a balance struck in the hive and outside environment in terms of adaptation to mites and viruses. Resistance, whether VSH or any other combinations of traits, is but one of the necessary ingredients in my opinion. Without some form of resistance, by resistance I mean mite and disease, I think a colony is doomed from the start.

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SiWolKe
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Re: to take out capped brood

Postby SiWolKe » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:00 pm

I´m with you there, Nordak, but it does not answer my question.

Is the culling out of mite infested brood a tool to teach the bees VSH behavior before they are "outbred" by mites?

I´m curious because it is used and propagated here.
But I don`t know if someone was successful so far.
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Nordak
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Re: to take out capped brood

Postby Nordak » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:11 pm

SiWolKe wrote:I´m with you there, Nordak, but it does not answer my question.

Is the culling out of mite infested brood a tool to teach the bees VSH behavior before they are "outbred" by mites?

I´m curious because it is used and propagated here.
But I don`t know if someone was successful so far.


Are you asking if the physical removal of drone comb by the part of the beekeeper can somehow prompt the bees to exhibit VSH traits?

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Dustymunky
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Re: to take out capped brood

Postby Dustymunky » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:46 am

My personal opinion is that the bees need to survive without intervention, under normal environmental circumstances. I doubt that insects can learn how to deal with disease or mites in one season. I personally think natural selection of abilities or behaviors over long periods (years or decades) is the main tool to improve genetics. A natural predator, parasite or disease that afflicts mites is the other mechanism that could balance the mite/bee relationship. I do not think culling brood helps bees long term.

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SiWolKe
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Re: to take out capped brood

Postby SiWolKe » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:29 am

Nordak wrote:
Are you asking if the physical removal of drone comb by the part of the beekeeper can somehow prompt the bees to exhibit VSH traits?


No, the physical removal of the entire capped worker brood frames to prompt them! This is the belief of some people.

Personally I´m with Dustymunky. My opinion is that this management is dangerous to the hive, because they invested too much energy into brood rearing and are likely more weak later on.

The professionals http://www.dieBiene.de are doing it after main flow. But they don´t use it to prompt the bees to do VSH. They do it as a varroa treatment,
separate the brood from the original hives, collect this in a queenright hive above an excluder, melt the old combs after hatching, do artificial swarms with the bees, treat them. The open brood in the original hives is culled out after being capped and melted down.
The queens are introduced into the artificial swarm hives again.

Culling combs out is a treatment to me. (I would like to have some arguments or a research link, though).
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moebees
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Re: to take out capped brood

Postby moebees » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:18 pm

SiWolke wrote: The professionals http://www.dieBiene.de are doing it after main flow. But they don´t use it to prompt the bees to do VSH. They do it as a varroa treatment,
separate the brood from the original hives, collect this in a queenright hive above an excluder, melt the old combs after hatching, do artificial swarms with the bees, treat them. The open brood in the original hives is culled out after being capped and melted down.
The queens are introduced into the artificial swarm hives again.


I am not sure I follow exactly what is going on here but if I understand it, it sounds like they are creating a brood break. That could help reduce mites. In my mind it is very doubtful that removing brood will teach them hygienic behavior. I don't think bees are really teachable. You may be able to manipulate them to do something but not teach.
Sam Droege, a biologist for the U.S. Geological Survey—“bees are not optional."

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Nordak
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Re: to take out capped brood

Postby Nordak » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:40 pm

It sounds like an exercise in futility to me, if I'm understanding the procedure.

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SiWolKe
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Re: to take out capped brood

Postby SiWolKe » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:15 pm

Well your bees are without mites afterwards.
But not on their way to resistance....
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J Lee
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Re: to take out capped brood

Postby J Lee » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:50 am

To me it is rescuing a Dwindling hive. I have a good beekeeping friend who pulled frames for 7 years as varroa control. As soon as she stopped her hives died in one season. That indicates to me that the bees did not learn anything from this manipulation by the beekeeper. With the bees I run I hate to do anything with the broodnest. I go into my hives and inspect them but I am very careful to put everything back the way I found it. To my understanding VSH is a trait that is selected for and not one that is taught. Hope this helps.


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