Dadant and dadant square

Discussion pertaining specifically to the hive type commonly known as "Langstroth" with Hoffman frames.
User avatar
SiWolKe
Hobbyist
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:36 am
Location: South Germany

Dadant and dadant square

Postby SiWolKe » Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:19 am

There is no dadant forum here so I post my topic under this subject.
Maybe an administrator will shift it to be a separate thread.

I started with dadant size deep broodbox because I wanted to keep all brood frames in one box. Not on two boxes with a gap between.

Many beekeeper hobbyists do the same now because in our climate the colonies, if you split every year or multiply every two years, it´s just the right size the bees will occupy. Most colonies have 8-10 frames of brood in summer, which means going back to 6 frames in fall and 3-5 frames clustering in winter.

My thoughts are now to put a super or two on top in the summer to engage them to fill with stores for overwintering.
I don't believe my queen splits are able to do 2 supers but one they will be able to do.

I´m aware of MB recommending:
Using all the same size frames greatly simplifies beekeeping management as any honey can be used for winter feed and any brood found in the supers can be moved back down since the frames are all interchangeable.


My experience was that the queenless very strong hives ( density) are able to fill a dadant deep with honey in my spring flow.
So, following MB, I want to use two deeps with the queenless until the honey frames are capped, store some for donation and harvest some.
Then reduce the queenless, which hopefully have mated queens now, to one deep with super on top to fill again.

Why so complicated?
I don´t want them to have empty space in a deep dadant top box. So far I had only two colonies which overwintered with a deep full of honey, the others had 2-3 honey combs and empty combs. I don't´want so much empty space in winter.

The problem with square dadant is that they go up when 6-8 frames are with brood and leave the side storage frames in the bottom box empty.
Civility is strength. http://www.VivaBiene.de

moebees
Backyard Beekeeper
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:57 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby moebees » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:13 am

My experience was that the queenless very strong hives ( density) are able to fill a dadant deep with honey in my spring flow.
So, following MB, I want to use two deeps with the queenless until the honey frames are capped, store some for donation and harvest some.
Then reduce the queenless, which hopefully have mated queens now, to one deep with super on top to fill again.

Why so complicated?
I don´t want them to have empty space in a deep dadant top box. So far I had only two colonies which overwintered with a deep full of honey, the others had 2-3 honey combs and empty combs. I don't´want so much empty space in winter.

The problem with square dadant is that they go up when 6-8 frames are with brood and leave the side storage frames in the bottom box empty.


I am not sure I follow exactly what you are saying. The queenless you are talking about are splits right? Could you not make 4 or 5 frame nuc boxes? Does someone sell Dadant nuc boxes? Another option would be to put follower boards in to reduce the space. I agree with Michael Bush on the single frame size. I think I would work on a solution involving the same frame size. Am I understanding what you are saying or am I off base?
Sam Droege, a biologist for the U.S. Geological Survey—“bees are not optional."

User avatar
SiWolKe
Hobbyist
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:36 am
Location: South Germany

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby SiWolKe » Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:47 am

You are understanding exactly.

The splits were so strong ( 6-8 brood combs each) this year, I used 2 normal deeps.
But this will not be the case in future.
I plan to expand the splits in one box until they fill it ( this will be in june-july) and then put supers on top ,or keep them without supers, depending on flow.

Now I have some nuc boxes (same frame size) to raise some queens, if possible.

For now I have enough equipment to do it like MB recommended or to do it the way I have in mind with 2 supers on top, leaving one for overwintering, and so reduce the space.
I don´t want to change the system, but to have the colony on two deep dadant in winter is not a good idea, as I see it.
So I try to find a solution.
Civility is strength. http://www.VivaBiene.de

User avatar
SiWolKe
Hobbyist
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:36 am
Location: South Germany

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby SiWolKe » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:13 am

If they are building in the spring and doing well, waiting until they fill a box before adding another is a mistake in my opinion. I know there are alot of beekeepers around here chasing bees using this philosophy. Once they fill a box and have a bunch of honey capping it off, they don't really see the added room.


I just found that post from Iharder.
So please give your comment to my former posts, Iharder. How would you proceed?

And I have another problem with the english terms.

Could you describe what: -mediums are?...-supers are?..I know what deep are. Which term is used for half the height of a deep?
Thanks.
Civility is strength. http://www.VivaBiene.de

User avatar
pantruten
Freshman Beekeeper
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:58 pm
Location: Poland

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby pantruten » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:55 am

There is a theory (I can't remember whose it is), that the bees decide whether to swarm and when in the early spring by judging the place they have. If the hive is small they will want to swarm and do it quickly - so they would do that as soon as it is possible (even if You add them super before the hive is full of bees). and if they have plenty of room, they will not decide whether to swarm yet.
So if the theory is correct bees should have plenty of room all the time (in the winter as well) - and if they don't you should give them extra box earlier than the first is full of bees - or You won't be able to stop them from swarming.

super is an extra box - no matter what type of box You have (dadant, Langstroth etc). I understand that it is usually meant as the box over the excluder, but I think that if You don't have excluder You may use the word "super" as well for another box. However If You mean another box just for brood area You wouldn't call it "super" but "broodbox"

"Langstroth medium" is a frame of about 16 cm high - (I'm not sure exactly how high it is) - in Poland we call "mediums" as "Langstroth 2/3". We have also in Poland "Langstroth 3/4" which is a frame of about 18,5 cm high. (Box is frame height + 1cm)

Full frame (od deep) is the full size in the type/system (like full dadant, full langstroth etc)
Half is just half of the full size in the type/system (so half dadant is 1/2 of dadant full size)

That is how I understand it (correct it if I'm wrong).
Last edited by pantruten on Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Michael Bush
Backyard Beekeeper
Posts: 339
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 11:34 am
Location: Nehawka, Nebraska
Contact:

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby Michael Bush » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:27 pm

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#lighterboxes

Shallow 5 3/4" deep = 146mm
Medium aka Illinois 6 5/8" deep = 168mm
Deep 9 5/8" deep = 244mm
Dadant deep 11 5/8" deep = 295mm

I have tried everything pretty much:

12 frame boxes of Langstroth Deeps.
12 frame boxes of Dadant Deeps.
18 frame boxes of Langstroth Deeps.
18 frame boxes of Dadant deeps.
22 frame boxes of Langstroth Deeps.
22 frame boxes of Dadant Deeps.
22 frame boxes of mediums.
33 frame boxes of Langstroth Deeps.
33 frame boxes of mediums.
10 frame boxes of Langstroth Deeps
10 frame boxes of Dadant Deeps.
10 frame boxes of mediums.
10 frame boxes of shallows
8 frame boxes of Langstroth Deeps
8 frame boxes of Dadant Deeps.
8 frame boxes of mediums.
10 frame boxes the warm way and the cold way
12 frame boxes the warm way and the cold way
DE hives (a similar hive to the British Standard)
Top Bar Hives
Box Hives

Now I run all eight frame mediums and see NO downside except the cost and I think they winter slightly better, are much safer to lift and build up better when I manage the space better (which I can do with a box that is half the volume of a ten frame deep).
"Everything works if you let it"--James "Big Boy" Medlin
http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

User avatar
pantruten
Freshman Beekeeper
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:58 pm
Location: Poland

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby pantruten » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:40 pm

Mr Bush,
have You tried any frame that is longer (higher) than wider?
We have some Polish hive system with frames 43cm high, 30 cm wide (like dadant but vertical). I am amazed how nicely they build up.
I also have some system that is a square box 37,5 cm x 37,5 cm with 18 cm frames high. (the area of the comb is very similar to LN medium with 8 frame box, but its a square, not rectangle). As I see it the bees like higher frames much better (but as I see that, I don't find it that much important).

User avatar
SiWolKe
Hobbyist
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:36 am
Location: South Germany

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby SiWolKe » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:48 pm

Thanks, Michael.
That´s mine:
Dadant deep 11 5/8" deep = 295mm

Seeley says the bees prefer 40-100l boxes. This means my brood box will be in the middle having 75l. Not bad.
Now they overwinter on 150l. That´s too much.

I´m not concerned about lifting. I leave the broodnest alone or pull frames and store them for a short time into a box on my wheelbarrow.
The half boxes I can lift, if they are full with honey, but if I use deeps I do with it like with the brood frames.

Bartek, I like those hives you have. I would use them if I started beekeeping.

12 frame boxes the warm way and the cold way


What´s your experience in your climate, Michael?

When I started with dadant square I wanted to change to warm way in winter, but I did not do it because I thought it would be stress.
Civility is strength. http://www.VivaBiene.de

User avatar
Michael Bush
Backyard Beekeeper
Posts: 339
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 11:34 am
Location: Nehawka, Nebraska
Contact:

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby Michael Bush » Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:27 pm

>What´s your experience in your climate, Michael?

I suppose if it was easy enough to set up (a square hive makes that easy) I'd do the warm way. When I let the bees build what they want they build the combs at a 45 degree angle or so to the entrance. In other words they prefer neither. So I put a small entrance at the corner and that is pretty close to what they build naturally. My entrances are reduces all year around now.
"Everything works if you let it"--James "Big Boy" Medlin
http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

User avatar
pantruten
Freshman Beekeeper
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:58 pm
Location: Poland

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby pantruten » Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:52 pm

Michael Bush wrote: My entrances are reduces all year around now.


how big are they? I made upper entrances as well (I like the idea very much), but I have them big (the width of the box) - this year I had much problems with bees' health (it was their second year TF), and I had to make them smaller - there was much robbing, and not that good developement as I would wish...

User avatar
SiWolKe
Hobbyist
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:36 am
Location: South Germany

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby SiWolKe » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:31 pm

Michael Bush wrote:>What´s your experience in your climate, Michael?

I suppose if it was easy enough to set up (a square hive makes that easy) I'd do the warm way. When I let the bees build what they want they build the combs at a 45 degree angle or so to the entrance. In other words they prefer neither. So I put a small entrance at the corner and that is pretty close to what they build naturally. My entrances are reduces all year around now.


What would happen when temperature raises to 35°C +? And bottom entrances 15cm long? Would they be able to cool enough? Yes, I think so.
Nice idea to try "warm way". I could open the floors but you expected this to be harder on them, as you posted. More ventilation = harder to climate?
I have water near, no problem for the bees maybe. Mmmmh?!

You wrote about the corner entrances, so you would leave "warm way" throughout the whole year then ? ( with entrance central)
Or do "warm way" only with corner entrance as it is the natural way? A corner entrance seems to me a difference concerning ventilation.
I leave the entrance small, too, 15cm, which was a very good idea.
Civility is strength. http://www.VivaBiene.de

Varroa Apiary
Freshman Beekeeper
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:18 pm
Location: Poland

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby Varroa Apiary » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:13 am

I like the idea of wheel entrance about 22 mm. Now i like "kajetan pasieka sosna" idea to make a lot of really small wheel entrance about 6,8,10 mm and no open bottom.

User avatar
Michael Bush
Backyard Beekeeper
Posts: 339
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 11:34 am
Location: Nehawka, Nebraska
Contact:

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby Michael Bush » Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:23 pm

>What would happen when temperature raises to 35°C +? And bottom entrances 15cm long? Would they be able to cool enough? Yes, I think so.

More easily than with a larger entrance. They need to control the ventilation.

>Nice idea to try "warm way". I could open the floors but you expected this to be harder on them, as you posted. More ventilation = harder to climate?

If the bottom is open all theories on the warm way or cold way are out the window.

>I have water near, no problem for the bees maybe. Mmmmh?!

Bees have no problem cooling a hive IF they can control the ventilation and they have a ready source of water.

>You wrote about the corner entrances, so you would leave "warm way" throughout the whole year then ? ( with entrance central)

My eight frame hives do not lend themselves to the warm way when it actually exposes more wall and takes more stands for me to do that. So mine are the cold way all year around with the entrance on the corner. I would put the entrance on the corner regardless based on the choice the bees make.

>Or do "warm way" only with corner entrance as it is the natural way? A corner entrance seems to me a difference concerning ventilation.

Yes. And I think it's why the bees build their combs at an angle to the entrance. Both the "warm way" and "cold way" arguments have some merit and the bees choose a compromise between the two.
"Everything works if you let it"--James "Big Boy" Medlin
http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

User avatar
SiWolKe
Hobbyist
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:36 am
Location: South Germany

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby SiWolKe » Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:34 pm

Very very good.
Thank you Michael.

And again: the direction of combs to the sun. Place the hive with the frames in this direction would be easy.
Do they use the sun compass for the comb direction?
I believe I read something like that in Jürgen Tautz`s book.
Civility is strength. http://www.VivaBiene.de

lharder
Hobbyist
Posts: 503
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 6:36 pm
Location: Kamloops, BC

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby lharder » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:48 pm

SiWolKe wrote:
If they are building in the spring and doing well, waiting until they fill a box before adding another is a mistake in my opinion. I know there are alot of beekeepers around here chasing bees using this philosophy. Once they fill a box and have a bunch of honey capping it off, they don't really see the added room.


I just found that post from Iharder.
So please give your comment to my former posts, Iharder. How would you proceed?

And I have another problem with the english terms.

Could you describe what: -mediums are?...-supers are?..I know what deep are. Which term is used for half the height of a deep?
Thanks.


So these are spring splits you are doing? The system I was referring to is about how not to split them in the spring and not have them swarm. From those who do this, reversing boxes, adding boxes early, putting them in the right spot, checkerboarding honey stores in the early spring and creating space at the sides of the broodnest, the use of snelgrove boards are all techniques to accomplish this. Increase is done using other methods except in the case of a snelgrove board.

The appeal of this method is that we have a very strong spring flow so ideally bees should build up early and strongly to take advantage of it and not be disrupted by splitting if you want a good honey crop.

So far, the rate of increase in my apiary has been rapid so I haven't really tested these methods. I have started making nucs as soon as drones are mature, and continued to mid July this past summer and into September the year before that. The ratio this year was 3 new hives for every hive coming out of this past winter, including overwintered nucs. As such I have dipped into the hives reserves often and early, a little at a time, so I have had no swarming except for a couple of very productive nucs that should have been given more room earlier. My honey production per overwintered hive was quite low as a result. However, the nucs I am overwintering are overall quite strong and are on 15 to 20 medium frames. Early nucs strongly supported later ones.

This next year, the character of the apiary will change. I hope to have about 34 to 36 overwintered colonies and have plans for maximal increase of 64 nucs. A ratio of 2 to 1. Within the overwintered population, there should also be a shift in the ratio of 2 winter hives and overwintered nucs. I am now getting in the territory where the beekeeper is the limiting factor for expansion, not the bees. I have to line up 2 new sites. Unless my apiary gets thwacked good this winter I will be very busy.

I am going to be trying some square medium dadant boxes this spring and will generally be using Bernhard's methods as described on beesource.

2 medium boxes should be sufficient for the brood nest, with a follower board and excluder. In fall I should be able to drop in medium frames with honey if the fall flow doesn't pan out. The disadvantage is that 2 queen hives would be precluded using 2 boxes for the brood nest.

I like the ideas on warm side/corner entrances so thanks to those ideas. With a warm side entrance, starting from the far side of the box would one go brood nest, follower board, empty frame/s, and another follower board near the entrance?

User avatar
pantruten
Freshman Beekeeper
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:58 pm
Location: Poland

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby pantruten » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:23 pm

pantruten wrote:
Michael Bush wrote: My entrances are reduces all year around now.


how big are they? I made upper entrances as well (I like the idea very much), but I have them big (the width of the box) - this year I had much problems with bees' health (it was their second year TF), and I had to make them smaller - there was much robbing, and not that good developement as I would wish...


Michael,
Would You answer that above?

I'd like to make mine entrances smaller because of this year experience, but I don't want to make them too small, and I don't wish to judge every time for every colony, but make some average size and leave them be. What would be "optimal" size? Is it one size in Your apiary, or does it depand on colony size? (per box of bees?)

User avatar
Michael Bush
Backyard Beekeeper
Posts: 339
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 11:34 am
Location: Nehawka, Nebraska
Contact:

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby Michael Bush » Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:31 pm

Mine are all about 2" wide and around 1/4" to 3/8" tall.
"Everything works if you let it"--James "Big Boy" Medlin
http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

User avatar
pantruten
Freshman Beekeeper
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:58 pm
Location: Poland

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby pantruten » Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:37 am

ok. thanks

User avatar
SiWolKe
Hobbyist
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:36 am
Location: South Germany

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby SiWolKe » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:36 am

Thanks, Iharder, very good explanation.
I´m really excited how my new ideas will work.

With a warm side entrance, starting from the far side of the box would one go brood nest, follower board, empty frame/s, and another follower board near the entrance?


Good question, maybe Michael will answer.
I realize, with "warm way" they will have less space to honey stores on top if the broodnest or stores of broodnest, start immediately at the entrance.... If one uses a follower board at the entrance to have space for the bees to go up, it would be much easier for the food chain because they must not cross the broodnest.
It could have advantage with cooling the hive, too... and in defense, because the wasps could be attacked before entering the broodnest.

I saw something like that in my boxes this year. There was always a food chain to the top box in the space between follower board and side of box.
I left the wax built there and the bees slept in those "half-cells".
Civility is strength. http://www.VivaBiene.de

User avatar
Michael Bush
Backyard Beekeeper
Posts: 339
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 11:34 am
Location: Nehawka, Nebraska
Contact:

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby Michael Bush » Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:06 pm

I don't really have any follower boards. I have some cut down "honey master" frames but they are like a sideways slatted rack and I use them to fill gaps that are too small for a frame and too large to not end up with burr comb in them.
"Everything works if you let it"--James "Big Boy" Medlin
http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

User avatar
SiWolKe
Hobbyist
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:36 am
Location: South Germany

Re: Dadant and dadant square

Postby SiWolKe » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:51 pm

After my bad experience with too much space having all this hives dead now and learning how to handle Dadand modified with the help of fusion_power and Bernhard Heuvel in my thread on BS I have decided my new arrangements now.

This are the picts.

Einraumbeute 3.jpg
Einraumbeute 3.jpg (53.1 KiB) Viewed 626 times

Einraumbeute 4.jpg
Einraumbeute 4.jpg (48.62 KiB) Viewed 626 times
Civility is strength. http://www.VivaBiene.de


Return to “Langstroth”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest