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Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:33 pm
by GregV
Since we now have more areas to talk hives, I figure I throw this in:
http://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/ ... yens.shtml

This is a latest addition to Dr. Leo's Layen's hive project - process of conversion from Lang system to Layen's system.
Now, this is a great case why I chose to go for Dadant frame size vs. the Layen's frame size.
Go to that page and see the instructions starting:
Step 7. If you transfer MEDIUM Langstroth frames,.........


Just look at the picture and you see how perfectly two medium Lang frames tied together fit as-is.
They are just a tad too tall for the Layen's hive.
I realized this last year when I was thinking which way to start building my own equipment.
Why bother myself with so much extra work to go to Layens system when two Lang meduims tied together is what I need - a Dadant frame turned 90 degrees. Never looked back. Lang medium frames are plentiful and cheap in the US to just recycle them into Dadant frames.

Unfortunately, Dr. Leo moved into the Layen's system when all he really needed was vertical Dadant system instead (common in Poland and Ukraine, btw). Nothing wrong with the Layen's system, but it is just a harder way to get to, basically, the same great hive suitable for Northern Region, USA.

Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:08 pm
by Rurification
When you tip the frames sideways, aren't the cells tilting the wrong direction then? Do the bees care?

Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:28 pm
by GregV
Rurification wrote:When you tip the frames sideways, aren't the cells tilting the wrong direction then? Do the bees care?


You correctly noticed that the existing cells will turn at 90 degrees (and will tilt sideways vs. upwards).

Per my experience, bees will use such cells still just fine. In fact, my bees keep using the 90 degree turned cells for brooding right now even though they have other choices too. I would not turn the cells 180 degrees (upside down), but anything within 90 degrees of the original tilt should be fine it seems. If you look at natural combs (say, a cut-out) their tilt varies widely and hardly ever is perfectly upwards.

Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:35 pm
by Michael Bush
Back in the late 1800s the Heddon hive was popular. It had reversible frames (you could flip the comb upside down) and reversible boxes (you could clamp the frames and flip the box upside down). The bees used it fine and it was a popular technique that was often discussed in the bee journals of the time.

Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:08 pm
by GregV
Michael Bush wrote:Back in the late 1800s the Heddon hive was popular. It had reversible frames (you could flip the comb upside down) and reversible boxes (you could clamp the frames and flip the box upside down). The bees used it fine and it was a popular technique that was often discussed in the bee journals of the time.


I was not aware.
This case also, basically, shows that turning combs at 90 degrees is just fine.

Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 4:06 pm
by flamenco108
Turning frames is quite obvious technique in Poland, when one wants to move from one frame dimension to another. I did it just several weeks ago and bees didn't object. Now they thrive on new frames and old comb is still the center of the nest.
I have also seen the movie on youtube, about round-frames-beehive from Russia. The beekeper uses turning the drum with frames at 180' to prevent swarming.

Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:15 pm
by GregV
OK, things are finally slowed down enough for me.
Garden/orchard work done for now.

First - a camping trip is needed to give the kids some break. :D
Then time to build at least two new mobile hives (I have these two large swarms sitting in temp plywood boxes).
I just scored 80-90 nice wooden Lang medium frames - all for free!
Perfect for my growing operation.

I will post few progress pic there and here about my vertical Dadant horizontals.
Here are few from my original mobile 16-framer.

Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:20 pm
by GregV
I really mean my hives to be mobile and easily movable by a standard vehicle using a standard luggage carrier.
Idea is to be able to manage several separate, remote sites with few hives each.
The hives can be left unattended for long stretches of times (including year around).
Robust, well insulated, uni-body type construction is needed.
There is enough space under the cover ("attic") for additional 10-frame Lang medium super (for summer) or for plenty of top insulation (in winter).
Lockable too.

Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:04 pm
by Rurification
Sweet setup!

Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:36 am
by GregV
Strapped together medium Lang frames measure the same as Ukranian frame (90 degree turned Dadant) and work like this.
Foundation-less setup using a stick-guide.

Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:33 pm
by GregV
Finally finished and deployed a deep 20-framer.
Excellent rig all way around.
Can be run in 20/10x10/15x5 configurations.
The only consideration - the deployment is a 2-men job.
This is not a migratory rig but rather "leave it and forget it" type equipment (classic, old European style).
The cost is, probably, $20-30 or so (the hardware).
Made mostly from broken apart shipping pallets.
Labor - 20-30 hours.
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Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:35 pm
by GregV
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Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:02 pm
by moebees
Nice but like you say it's a two man job and I only have one man. :)

Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:35 pm
by GregV
moebees wrote:Nice but like you say it's a two man job and I only have one man. :)


A matter of personal circumstances (like everything else in this life).
I knew it would be heavy, but I got a 17-year old helper and more are on the way.
BTW, a man and a wife team works too (it is not the raw weight, really; that's the dimensions what make this rig a two person job).

As soon as the local administration raises their stupid one-hive limit for the backyards (work in progress here), this 20-framer will be permanently moved into my backyard. A great multi-purpose rig for a permanent location what it is.

PS: the next rig I wanna try - a deep multi-purpose 14-framer (more mobile version with optional 1-2 supers on top for standard Lang meds);

Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:47 pm
by Pedro Blom
Hi GregV!

Nice hives and ideas!
I'm in Sweden and have just started a few hives in the Lazutin style but using swedish frame measures.

We have a Facebook group called Horizontal Hives With Extra Deep Frames. It would be nice if you wanted to join the group and share your experiences and ideas there.

Heres a link to the group. Hope to see you there.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/183135888772193/

Skickat från min SM-G930F via Tapatalk

Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:42 am
by GregV
Pedro, I don't participate in Facebook for my own reasons.
It maybe I will eventually, but for now I have no good reasons to give up yet more of my privacy. :)

All in all, after a couple of years now since I reentered the beekeeping and lots of research done, I am a totally deep frame beekeeper and will continue to so. Deep frame for the brood chamber is a no-brainer for me.
I got a fleet of a 20 framer, 16 framers, 12 framers, 10 framers, 6 framers.

For all of the above I use standard Lang frames turned 90 degrees in a variety of ways.
The excess honey store implementation can be different - either vertical (just a typical super) or horizontal (turn and drop the honey frames in); this is really flexible and not that important. I, in fact, will be using vertical Langstroth medium frames in future for extra honey storage just because I can and because I want to use conventional equipment.

At the same time, the deep brood chamber for cold winter areas are exactly what low maintenance beekeeper is asking for.
You basically hardly need to go there and do any manipulations. There is no particular need.
Deep brood chamber is maintained by the bees mostly autonomously in the best way they know themselves (this is true in big hives, to be sure; NOT small hives - small hives are high maintenance by default because they grow and have different dynamics).

Anyways, I can rant a lot on my favorite topic.
Meanwhile, today we deployed a nice 16-framer I just finished into one my remote yards (man-wife team).
16-framers are probably my favorite as I can alone manipulate the hive with not much difficulty when building and maintaining it (20-framer is pushing it; I will not build anymore 20 framers for now). And yet 16 framer is big enough to meet a variety of specs.

This one pictured here I have configured run at 16, 8/8, 10/6 frame modes (plus an optional standard Lang medium super above).

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Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:06 am
by GregV
Here are how deep frames well set for the wintering should look like.

Since I have not had time this year at all to build more frames, I have been just using tied together Land med frames as substitute.
Notice how nicely the honey is stored over the head and empty cells/late brood are placed at the very bottom so the winter cluster can set down there and gradually work up. No lateral moves are needed when you have a good foot of honey stored just above the head.

This is how Ukranian/Polish/Layens deep horizontal hives work - letting the bees to setup their nests in the very natural ways.
Let the bees do what they do best and don't mess with them.

Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:20 pm
by Varroa Apiary
Hello. GregV. You did it more elegant than me. ;) When I moved from short friend's frames to my high frames in old Warsaw polish hive.

Image

Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:15 pm
by GregV
My last 16-frame hive built for the 2017 season.
This one is an experiment - the walls are from sandwiched plywood and rigid foam.
A bit lighter, but feels less sturdy than solid board hives.
Did not take me less work either (give and take).
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Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:43 pm
by GregV
OK, for the fun of it, here are the pics how I packed a colony into my latest deep hive for the winter.
This is a traditional way to winter in a traditional 16-frame deep horizontal hive.

The bees are sitting on 8 deep frames - any frame not covered with bees has been taken out (actually, some are just plain top bars, not even frames).
The number of the wintering frames goes by the colony size.
One can winter on even 4-5 frames for a smaller colony.
I got three 16-frames with 8-9 frames wintering in each.
The behemoth 20-framer holds two nucs side-by-side; 6 frames each.

Dividers on both sides limit the nest.
One divider is an insulated sandwich; the other is just a 3/4 inch plywood.
I just had to slap the dividers on the fly since I have none on hand.

The top bars are touching, thus, giving a solid, well propolized, and draft-stopping ceiling. No significant volume of air should escape up, if any.

A layer of burlap so to keep the blanket clean. I am having hard time to get free burlap... :shock:
Ended up buying few used coffee sacks.

A polyester blanket (folded 4 times); it insulates well and dries out well too.
The dew point line should occur within the blanket layer somewhere on hard freezing days.
I got a pile of these blankets for free just by asking around ... :D

A mat of coconut fibers (just to cut down the wind blowing across the "attic").
I have a pile of these mats I made up from coconut fiber blankets (got a pile for free from a friend).

I have about 5 cm (2 inches) of open space below the frames and the dividers.
So while the top of the nest is really tight and insulated, the bottom is open to air movements and moisture dissipation.

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Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:44 pm
by GregV
More pics
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Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:45 pm
by NGACHET
wasn't Dr Leo's primary purpose for making the lang fit into the layens to provide a way to move a colony from lang to layens? I think your point is to adjust the size of the box to accommodate lang frames and I'm really getting into that, sounds like a good idea.

Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:16 pm
by NGACHET
I am thinking about using 1 1/4 narrow frame spacing using this 2 lang med technique with every other frame no foundation.

Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:45 pm
by GregV
Here are some pictures for you (harvesting honey from winter dead outs).
If any plastic Lang frames are available, they can be cut out and reused as foundation-less - really nice starter strips all way around.
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Re: Rant about Layens hive.

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:48 pm
by GregV
More.
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